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roddy -

Incidentally, when did this happen . . .

Quote:

中土之外自称中华的国度不止日本





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nnt -



Quote:

Quote:
但是越南立国，基本上是趁唐末五代十国混乱之机，以边藩自立，大量上层�
��士来自中国内地，所以长期具有“南北朝”的心态，以现代语讲，就是持��
�两个中国”态度"


What is the source of this?

Perhaps from an advocate of "One country, two systems" applied to the past and extended to Vietnam

as opposed to "Two countries, two systems" from a Vietnamese point of view.










Zhao Hanqing -

Ma cher wushijiao,
Chinese called their country Zhongguo thousands of years ago, but the term became China's official
name only after 1911 revolution.










Zhao Hanqing -

If you are proficient enough in Chinese you had better read histories of Vietnam in Chinese.Only
by then you will know what I said is absolutely true.
The old version of Vietnam history 大越史记 is more convincing, for the Vietnamese government
may have tampled with new ones. Unfortunately Vietnamese have developed an intense hatred for
Chinese and turned a blind eye to facts and refuse to see facts. I as a Chinese hope Vietnam will
remain independent until all countries become one family some day.










Zhao Hanqing -

Although Vietnamese rulers hated and feared Ming dynasty they had to submit to and pay tributes to
Ming emperors following Japanese who regarded Ming emperors as their emperors especially when they
presented tributes to Ming rulers.










Zhao Hanqing -

Vietnamese did call Ming rulers kuangming or zei in the beginning of Ming dynasty. But they had to
sumbit by and by. All East Asian nations including Japan and Korea were forced to acknowledge Ming
emperors as their common emperors and Vietnam had to follow suit. Otherwise how could they have
survived? We have to respect history.










Zhao Hanqing -

For a long time Vietnamese rulers regarded the independent Vietnam, namely the southern dynasties
as the legitimate heir of Zhongguo instead of northern dynasties of China. Probably they must have
considered people of real Zhongguo as babarians. Who knows? In a certain sense Vietnamese rulers
were entitled to call their country Zhonguo. But in modern times Vietnamese ruler regretted their
ancestors had called their country Zhongguo because they feared Vietnam would really become part
of China. So they tried desperatey to ignore the irrefutable facts teeming in Vietnamese
historical documents.
There is no need to worry. History is history. No one can change the status quo of Vietnam.










Long Zhiren -



Quote:

If you are refering to the word order in sentence structure, then according to Wikipedia, then
yes, they do have the same order. Both languages (and many others, for that matter) share the
Subject-Verb-Object (SVO) order...For example...Though, I don't know Vietnamese so I can't really
offer any more examples.

中文 happens to be my third language; and tiếng Việt is a very weak eighth.

The Vietnamese language has been in transformation in recent decades. The goal has been to make it
less and less Chinese. Until the recent past, it borrowed a lot from Chinese.

Examples of changes (compare with : 中國/法國 and 中文/法文)
China/France was: Trung-quốc/Pháp-quốc is now: nước-đồ/nước-Pháp
Chinese/French was: Trung-tiếng/Pháp-tiếng is now: tiếng đồ/tiếng Pháp
Lots of adjective/noun order reversals and complete swap of words that were too Chinese.

Many tiếng Việt expressions are still very very 中文 (compare with: 博物館 and 小心):
museum nhà bảo tàng (older buildings in Việt nam have it "bảo nhà tàng")
Be careful! ghen đen! (spelling?)


Articles of measure that precede nouns are complicated like in 中文 but there's really no
one-to-one correspondance:
cái, con, bài, cây, chiếc, tòa, etc vs 把, 班, 包, 杯, 本, etc.

tiếng Việt pronouns are far more complicated than the 中文 pronouns:
Ông, Bà, Bác, Cô, Chú, etc vs N/A

Addressing relatives of friends and family in 中文 is very complicated. I haven't yet learned it
in tiếng Việt so don't know how it corresponds in this respect.

And yes. In the past, the writing was all 100% 中文.
If you were to visit the Temple of Literature in Hánoi, founded in 1070AD, you'll find nothing
but 中文 characters on everything.










bhchao -



Quote:

Although Vietnamese rulers hated and feared Ming dynasty they had to submit to and pay tributes to
Ming emperors following Japanese who regarded Ming emperors as their emperors especially when they
presented tributes to Ming rulers....

Vietnamese did call Ming rulers kuangming or zei in the beginning of Ming dynasty. But they had to
sumbit by and by. All East Asian nations including Japan and Korea were forced to acknowledge Ming
emperors as their common emperors and Vietnam had to follow suit. Otherwise how could they have
survived? We have to respect history.

Tributes were purely used for symbolic purposes and had no actual impact on the independent
workings of an entity giving the tribute. They were used to give the false impression that another
country was directly subservient to the "master" country, for the latter's face-saving purposes.

If I was the leader of a country/kingdom like Vietnam or Silla Korea, and defeated an invading
country's forces, I would think of a tribute as an inexpensive way to give the other country face
while still maintaining my independence and autonomy.

If Hideyoshi Toyotomi acknowledged Ming Wanli as his emperor, he would not launch the 1592 and
1597 invasions of Korea for the purpose of invading China.










HashiriKata -



Quote:

If I was the leader of a country/kingdom like Vietnam or Silla Korea, and defeated an invading
country's forces, I would think of a tribute as an inexpensive way to give the other country face
while still maintaining my independence and autonomy.

I think bhchao has hit the nail on the head!












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