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bhchao -

I saw the film and I am ambivalent towards it. I think the sex scenes were a bit overdone, and
actually shocking. One couple walked out of the cinema during the film.

However 15 or 20 years down the road, moviegoers will have a different standard in judging films
and will probably think nothing of the scenes as they watch this film.

I felt Tony Leung was a good fit for the role. Few actors can effectively express emotions subtly
with their face without some kind of extroversion. Leung expresses his emotions through his eyes.
You can tell he feels internal conflict within him regarding the wartime character he is. And yet
he still must do his job.

Good to hear Shanghainese, Cantonese, and Mandarin dialect all being used in the film.



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cdn_in_bj -

So has anyone on the mainland gotten their hands on a DVD here? I was thinking of seeing it in the
theatre, but am reconsidering now due to the cuts.










JohnStables -

I saw the film in Shanghai and I thought it was one big yawn. I have seen lots of Ang Li's movies
and love them all, especially Eat man drink woman, but I didn't like this one at all. I heard that
some sex scenes were cut, but I can't believe that a few sex scenes could have made this any
better. It was well done i suppose, but I just found the story boring. I didn't care about the
characters at all...It was cool to hear different dialects though...probably the best thing I
could say about it...










Rhubarb -












studentyoung -



Quote:

Originally posted by Skylee:

And the sex scenes are good enough for an adult film ... but I don't know if they are necessary.
The director obviously finds them necessary and without them maybe we would not understand why
people in the film do the things that they do....



Quote:

Originally posted by Bhchao
I saw the film and I am ambivalent towards it. I think the sex scenes were a bit overdone, and
actually shocking. One couple walked out of the cinema during the film.



Quote:

王佳芝为什么要放走易先生？李安想的是：通往女人心中的是阴道。他安排�
��一场长达七分钟的床戏，再现了一场征服和暴力。没有A片里柔光、抚爱等�
��法，也不像《美人草》里那么文艺，更不是《本能》的张扬、姿势优美.....
是了，A片的床戏总会有一些优美的姿势。若你能够不笑场的话，那你能看到
两个不穿衣服的人，尽力的伸展身体，展现曼妙的曲线......而《色戒》的床�
��，是紧张压抑的。体现的更多是男人带暴力倾向的兽性。

因为......他们认为，通往女人心里的是阴道。

天涯用“张爱玲说，通往女人心里的是阴道”作标题吸引眼球的时候，我在�
��里呻吟了一声.....几乎可以预见这个帖子是如何曲解人意惨不忍睹。张爱玲
的原文明明是：“据说是民国初年精通英文的那位名学者说的.....她（王佳��
�）就不信名学者说得出那样下作的话。她自己也不相信那话。除非是老了倒
贴的风尘女人，或是风流寡妇。像他自己，不是本来讨厌梁闰生，（发生关�
��之后）只有更讨厌他？......跟老易在一起那两次总是那么提心吊胆，要处��
�留神，哪还去问自己觉得怎样。回到他家里，又是风声鹤唳，一夕数惊。他
们睡得晚，好容易回到自己房间里，就够忙着吃安眠药.....”

性后需要吃安眠药才能睡着，怎么也不能说是到高潮了。更别提因此爱他....
..做为男人的李安，也许有他的细腻和华丽，可是他无法理解那飘荡，悲凉��
�仓皇......一个女子乱世里的无依。谁对她好过？而眼前的人，竟然肯出十根
金条为她买粉钻......

明知是到不了手的，她有什么爱？性和财势加在一起的力量，重逾钢铁。他�
��以为用这两样可以让一个女子昏了头，忘记家国，责任。

被征服的身体以及意志，和璀璨闪烁的钻石。还不够让她昏迷？他们这样理�
��一个女人。

令人遗憾的是，很多男人就是这样理解女人的。



Quote:

而其实，不过是悲凉。飘荡。唯有那一刻，他唇边模糊的微笑，是暖的。她�
��意用自己和同伴的生命去换取。

女人都是飘的。像天上的羽毛。也许她们会因为一个刹那而曲解成永恒。这�
��皇人世，唯一对她好过的人，她怎忍心他为她殒命？她说：快走......

那两个字，是杜鹃蹄血。她用完了她的一生。

http://blog.china.com/u/070831/74136...1/1696528.html

Cheers!










skylee -

I don't understand #45.










studentyoung -



Quote:

I don't understand #45.

I want to explain it gives me an impression that all those sex scenes in the film are used to
express the word in the original story, which is “到女人心里的路通过阴道 The way goes
through a woman’s heart is her vagina.”

In fact, it is not the right thing 张爱玲 wanted to express. Instead, I think 张 wanted
express that in that uncertain social condition, a girl lived a vagrant life just felt so touched
for someone who could make her heart feel warm., that she finally let 易 go at that critical
time. She was willing to die for the temporary warmth in her heart, not sex or diamond.

Do you still remember the texts below?



Quote:

一个店伙叫道：“干么呀？还不给我走？”那少年道：“好，走就走。”刚�
��过身去，另一个店伙叫道：“把馒头放下。”那少年依言将馒头放下，但��
�白的馒头上已留下几个污黑的手印，再也发卖不得。一个伙计大怒，出拳打
去，那少年矮身躲过。郭靖见他可怜，知他饿得急了，忙抢上去拦住，道：�
��别动粗，算在我帐上。”捡起馒头，递给少年。那少年接过馒头，道：“��
�馒头做得不好。可怜东西，给你吃罢！”丢给门口一只癞皮小狗。小狗扑上
去大嚼起来。
一个店伙叹道：“可惜，可惜，上白的肉馒头喂狗。”郭靖也是一楞，只道�
��少年腹中饥饿，这才抢了店家的馒头，哪知他却丢给狗子吃了。郭靖回座��
�吃。那少年跟了进来，侧着头望他。郭靖给他瞧得有些不好意思，招呼道：
“你也来吃，好吗？”那少年笑道：
“好，我一个人闷得无聊，正想找伴儿。”说的是一口江南口音。郭靖之母�
��浙江临安人，江南六怪都是嘉兴左近人氏，他从小听惯了江南口音，听那��
�年说的正是自己乡音，很感喜悦。那少年走到桌边坐下，郭靖吩咐店小二再
拿饭菜。店小二见了少年这副肮脏穷样，老大不乐意，叫了半天，才懒洋洋�
��拿了碗碟过来。那少年发作道：“你道我穷，不配吃你店里的饭菜吗？只��
�你拿最上等的酒菜来，还不合我的胃口呢。”店小二冷冷的道：“是么？你
老人家点得出，咱们总是做得出，就只怕吃了没人回钞。”那少年向郭靖道�
��“任我吃多少，你都作东吗？”郭靖道：“当然，当然。”转头向店小二��
�：“快切一斤牛肉，半斤羊肝来。”他只道牛肉羊肝便是天下最好的美味，
又问少年：“喝酒不喝？”那少年道：“别忙吃肉，咱们先吃果子。喂伙计�
��先来四干果、四鲜果、两咸酸、四蜜饯。”店小二吓了一跳，不意他口出��
�言，冷笑道：“大爷要些甚么果子蜜饯？”那少年道：“这种穷地方小酒店
，好东西谅你也弄不出来，就这样吧，干果四样是荔枝、桂圆、蒸枣、银杏�
��鲜果你拣时新的。咸酸要砌香樱桃和姜丝梅儿，不知这儿买不买到？蜜饯��
�？就是玫瑰金橘、香药葡萄、糖霜桃条、梨肉好郎君。”店小二听他说得十
分在行，不由得收起小觑之心。那少年又道：“下酒菜这里没有新鲜鱼虾，�
��，就来八个马马虎虎的酒菜吧。”店小二问道：“爷们爱吃甚么？”少年��
�：“唉，不说清楚定是不成。八个酒菜是花炊鹌子、炒鸭掌、鸡舌羹、鹿肚
酿江瑶、鸳鸯煎牛筋、菊花兔丝、爆獐腿、姜醋金银蹄子。我只拣你们这儿�
��得出的来点，名贵点儿的菜肴嘛，咱们也就免了。”店小二听得张大了口��
�不拢来，等他说完，道：
“这八样菜价钱可不小哪，单是鸭掌和鸡舌羹，就得用几十只鸡鸭。”少年�
��郭靖一指道：
“这位大爷做东，你道他吃不起吗？”店小二见郭靖身上一件黑貂甚是珍贵�
��心想就算你会不出钞，把这件黑貂皮剥下来抵数也尽够了，当下答应了，��
�问：“够用了吗？”少年道：
“再配十二样下饭的菜，八样点心，也就差不多了。”店小二不敢再问菜名�
��只怕他点出来采办不到，当下吩咐厨下拣最上等的选配，又问少年：“爷��
�用甚么酒？小店有十年陈的三白汾酒，先打两角好不好？”少年道：“好吧
，将就对付着喝喝！”不一会，果子蜜饯等物逐一送上桌来，郭靖每样一尝�
��件件都是从未吃过的美味。那少年高谈阔论，说的都是南方的风物人情，��
�靖听他谈吐隽雅，见识渊博，不禁大为倾倒。他二师父是个饱学书生，但郭
靖倾力学武，只是闲时才跟朱聪学些粗浅文字，这时听来，这少年的学识似�
��在二师父之下，不禁暗暗称奇，心想：“我只道他是个落魄贫儿，哪知学��
�竟这么高。中土人物，果然与塞外大不相同。”再过半个时辰，酒菜摆满了
两张拼起来的桌子。那少年酒量甚浅，吃菜也只拣清淡的夹了几筷，忽然叫�
��小二过来，骂道：“你们这江瑶柱是五年前的宿货，这也能卖钱？”掌柜��
�听见了，忙过来陪笑道：“客官的舌头真灵。实在对不起。小店没江瑶柱，
是去这里最大的酒楼长庆楼让来的。通张家口没新鲜货。”那少年挥挥手，�
��跟郭靖谈论起来，听他说是从蒙古来，就问起大漠的情景。郭靖受过师父��
�咐，不能泄露自己身分，只说些弹兔、射雕、驰马、捕狼等诸般趣事。那少
年听得津津有味，听郭靖说到得意处不觉拍手大笑，神态甚是天真。郭靖一�
��长于沙漠，虽与拖雷、华筝两个小友交好，但铁木真爱惜幼子，拖雷常跟��
�父亲身边，少有空闲与他游玩。华筝则脾气极大，郭靖又不肯处处迁就顺让
，尽管常在一起玩耍，却动不动便要吵架，虽然一会儿便言归于好，总是不�
��相投，此时和这少年边吃边谈，不知如何，竟是感到了生平未有之喜。他��
�来口齿笨拙，不善言辞，通常总是给别人问到，才不得不答上几句，韩小莹
常笑他颇有南希仁惜言如金之风，是四师父的入室子弟，可是这时竟说得滔�
��不绝，把自己诸般蠢举傻事，除了学武及与铁木真有关的之外，竟一古脑��
�的都说了出来，说到忘形之处，一把握住了少年的左手。一握了下，只觉他
手掌温软嫩滑，柔若无骨，不觉一怔。那少年低低一笑，俯下了头。郭靖见�
��脸上满是煤黑，但颈后肤色却是白腻如脂、肌光胜雪，微觉奇怪，却也并��
�在意。那少年轻轻挣脱了手，道：“咱们说了这许久，菜冷了，饭也冷啦！
”郭靖道：“是，冷菜也好吃。”那少年摇摇头。郭靖道：“那么叫热一下�
��。”那少年道：“不，热过的菜都不好吃。”把店小二
叫来，命他把几十碗冷菜都撤下去倒掉，再用新鲜材料重做热菜。酒店中掌�
��的、厨子、店小二个个称奇，既有生意，自然一一照办。蒙古人习俗，招��
�客人向来倾其所有，何况郭靖这次是平生第一次使钱，浑不知银钱的用途，
但就算知道，既和那少年说得投契，心下不胜之喜，便多花十倍银钱，也丝�
��不会放在心上。等到几十盆菜肴重新摆上，那少年只吃了几筷，就说饱了��
�店小二心中暗骂郭靖：“你这傻蛋，这小子把你冤上啦。”一会结帐，共是
一十九两七钱四分。郭靖摸出一锭黄金，命店小二到银铺兑了银子付帐。

出得店来，朔风扑面。那少年似觉寒冷，缩了缩头颈，说道：“叨扰了，再�
��罢。”郭靖见他衣衫单薄，心下不忍，当下脱下貂裘，披在他身上，说道��
�“兄弟，你我一见如故，请把这件衣服穿了去。”他身边尚剩下四锭黄金，
取出两锭，放在貂裘的袋中。那少年也不道谢，披了貂裘，飘然而去。那少�
��走出数十步，回过头来，见郭靖手牵着红马，站在长街上兀自望着自己，��
�呆出神，知他舍不得就此分别，向他招了招手。郭靖快步过去，道：“贤弟
可还缺少甚么？”那少年微微一笑，道：“还没请教兄长高姓大名。”郭靖�
��道：“真是的，这倒忘了。我姓郭名靖。兄弟你呢？”那少年道：“我姓��
�，单名一个蓉字。”郭靖道：“你要去哪里？若是回南方，咱们结伴同行如
何？”黄蓉摇头道：“我不回南方。”忽然说道：“大哥，我肚子又饿啦。�
��郭靖喜道：“好，我再陪兄弟去用些酒饭便是。”这次黄蓉领着他到了张��
�口最大的酒楼长庆楼，铺陈全是仿照大宋旧京汴梁大酒楼的格局。黄蓉不再
大点酒菜，只要了四碟精致细点，一壶龙井，两人又天南地北的谈了起来。�
��蓉听郭靖说养了两头白雕，好生羡慕，说道：“我正不知到哪里去好，这��
�说，明儿我就上蒙古，也去捉两只小白雕玩玩。”郭靖道：“那可不容易碰
上。”黄蓉道：“怎么你又碰上呢？”郭靖无言可答，只好笑笑，心想蒙古�
��寒，朔风猛烈，他身子单薄，只怕禁受不住，问道：“你家在哪里？干么��
�回家？”黄蓉眼圈儿一红，道：“爹爹不要我啦。”郭靖道：“干么呀？”
黄蓉道：“爹爹关住了一个人，老是不放，我见那人可怜，独个儿又闷得慌�
��便拿些好酒好菜给他吃，又陪他说话。爹爹恼了骂我，我就夜里偷偷逃了��
�来。”郭靖道：“你爹爹这时怕在想你呢。你妈呢？”黄蓉道：“早死啦，
我从小就没妈。”郭靖道：
“你玩够之后，就回家去罢。”黄蓉流下泪来，道：“爹爹不要我啦。”郭�
��道：“不会的。”黄蓉道：“那么他干么不来找我？”郭靖道：“或许他��
�找的，不过没着。”黄蓉破涕为笑，道：“倒也说得是。那我玩够之后就回
去，不过先得捉两只白雕儿。”两人谈了一阵途中见闻，郭靖说到八个穿男�
��的白衣女子意图夺马之事。
黄蓉问起小红马的性子脚程，听郭靖说后，神色十分欣羡，喝了一口茶，笑�
��吟的道：“大哥，我向你讨一件宝物，你肯吗？”
郭靖道：“哪有不肯之理？”黄蓉道：“我就是喜欢你这匹汗血宝马。”郭�
��毫不迟疑，道：“好，我送给兄弟就是。”黄蓉本是随口开个玩笑，心想��
�对这匹千载难逢的宝马爱若性命，自己与他不过萍水相逢，存心是要瞧瞧这
老实人如何出口拒绝，哪知他答应得豪爽之至，实是大出意外，不禁愕然，�
��中感激，难以自已，忽然伏在桌上，呜呜咽咽的哭了起来。这一下郭靖更��
�大为意外，忙问：“兄弟，怎么？你身上不舒服吗？”黄蓉抬起头来，虽是
满脸泪痕，却是喜笑颜开，只见他两条泪水在脸颊上垂了下来，洗去煤黑，�
��出两道白玉般的肌肤，笑道：“大哥，咱们走罢！”

郭靖会了钞下楼，牵过红马，嘱咐道：“我把你送给了我的好朋友，你要好�
��听话，决不可发脾气。”拉住辔头，轻轻抚摸马毛，说道：“兄弟，你上��
�罢！”那红马本不容旁人乘坐，但这些日子来野性已大为收敛，又见主人如
此，也就不加抗拒。黄蓉翻身上马，郭靖放开了手，在马臀上轻轻一拍，小�
��马绝尘而去。
——《射雕英雄传》（第七回《比武招亲》）



Quote:

……那为首的亲随道：“这些点心果物，小主说请道长和郭爷将就用些。两�
��住在哪里，小的这就送去。”其余亲随托上果盒，揭开盒盖，只见十二只��
�中装了各式细点鲜果，模样十分精致。郭靖心想：“黄蓉贤弟爱吃精致点心
，我多留些给他。 ”……
……
那少女对他们浑不理睬，笑道：“我是你的黄贤弟啊，你不睬我了吗？”郭�
��再定神一看，果见她眉目口鼻确和黄蓉一模一样，说道：“你……你……��
�”只说了两个“你”字，再也接不下去了。黄蓉嫣然一笑，说道：“我本是
女子，谁要你黄贤弟、黄贤弟的叫我？快上船来罢。”郭靖恍在梦中，双足�
��点，跃上船去。黄河四鬼兀自将救人的赏格不断提高。黄蓉把小舟荡到湖��
�，取出酒菜，笑道：“咱们在这里喝酒赏雪，那不好吗？”这时离黄河四鬼
已远，叫嚷之声已听不到了。郭靖心神渐定，笑道：“我真胡涂，一直当你�
��男子，以后不能再叫你黄贤弟啦！”黄蓉笑道：“你也别叫我黄贤妹，叫��
�作蓉儿罢。我爸爸一向这样叫的。”郭靖忽然想起，说道：“我给你带了点
心来。”从怀里掏出完颜康送来的细点，哪知他背负王处一、换水化毒、奔�
��求药，早把点心压得或扁或烂，不成模样。黄蓉看了点心的样子，轻轻一��
�。郭靖红了脸，道：“吃不得了！”拿起来要抛入湖中。黄蓉伸手接过，道
：“我爱吃。”郭靖一怔，黄蓉已把一块点心放在口里吃起来。郭靖见她吃�
��几口，眼圈渐红，眼眶中慢慢充了泪水，更是不解。黄蓉道： “
我生下来就没了妈，从没有谁这样记着我过……”说着几颗泪水流了下来。�
��取出一块洁白的手帕，郭靖以为她要擦拭泪水，哪知她把几块压烂了的点��
�细心包好，放在怀里，回眸一笑，道：“我慢慢的吃。”
……
——《射雕英雄传》（第八回《各显神通》）

(看来，还是金庸比较了解女人啊。)

Cheers!










skylee -

Thanks for the explanation. I am not so patient with so many quotes, though.










studentyoung -



Quote:

Thanks for the explanation.

You’re welcome.



Quote:

明知是到不了手的，她有什么爱？性和财势加在一起的力量，重逾钢铁。他�
��以为用这两样可以让一个女子昏了头，忘记家国，责任。

被征服的身体以及意志，和璀璨闪烁的钻石。还不够让她昏迷？他们这样理�
��一个女人。

The way goes through a woman’s heart is her vagina.

Lust, Caution.

In my opinion, none of the three above is Ang Lee wanted to express in his film.



Quote:

And I think Tony Leung acts superbly. And the sex scenes are good enough for an adult film (not
that I have seen many) but I don't know if they are necessary. The director obviously finds them
necessary and without them maybe we would not understand why people in the film do the things that
they do ...... (which reminds me of the french film Betty Blue)

You are quite right, skylee, that, to the director, the sex scenes are quite necessary. I will
tell you why later.

As I mentioned above, none of the three ideas is Ang Lee wanted to express in his film. In fact, I
think Ang Lee just wanted to express the idea “长恨此身非我有，何时忘却营营?I
always feel so pity that it seems the body is not mine. When can I forget all this
‘busy-for-fame and gain’ life? ” (You can also find it in “Crunching Tiger, Hidden
Dragon” and “Brokeback Mountain”) In a word, I think the very think Ang Lee wanted to
express was “loneliness”, neither lust, nor caution.

The sex scenes according to the descriptions by our forum members reminds me of a Japanese novel
named “失乐园” (which has been shot in a film with the same name). In this book, both hero
and heroin feel loneliness and hopelessness in each other’s life so deep, that each time their
sex is depressing and desperate. You can also use “depressing” and “desperate” to describe
the sex scenes in “Lust, Caution”, “loneliness” and “hopelessness” to 王佳芝 and
易先生. In short, the sex scenes are all used to serve for Ang Lee’s theme, i.e.
“Loneliness and hopelessness (in life)人生的寂寞与绝望”, and that’s why they’re so
important in the film. That's also why I think both "失乐园" (the film) and "Lust, Caution" are
different from those commercial adult movies.

If we take sex as a bomb, loneliness and hopelessness must be its blasting fuse. Unluckily, in the
film “Lust, Caution”, the plots use to describe 王 and 易’s loneliness are not so
persuasive, and the plots to show how these two understand each other’s lonely and hopeless
conditions are not enough. Without seeing the blasting fuse (王 and 易’s loneliness and
hopelessness), how can spectators understand why the bomb (their sex) exploded so unexpectedly and
strongly?
（李安就是在这么细节上处理得不够好，不然的话这部片子的情节给人的感�
��会更流畅，结局也更加赚人热泪。）

Cheers!










skylee -

I think the film is good enough, at least for me.

I want to get a bit off-the-topic - when I was at middle school (final year) and we studied Lu
Xun's style, our teacher made a comment that many regarded Lu Xun as the greatest writer (or one
of the greatest writers) in Modern China but it was always easier to make criticism than to really
make things happen. I still remember it clearly after all these years. It was not really about the
writer, or the literature. Our Chinese teacher taught us more than that.

Sorry for being so long-winded and irrelevant.

PS - I deleted the second part of this post because it was so irrelevant. But I was not fast
enough as studentyoung had already seen it and posted comment on it. So I now put it back.












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