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david1978 -

Question: How many Western people have you guys encountered that are truly fluent in Mandarin?

I have never met one myself.



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anonymoose -



Quote:

Question: How many Western people have you guys encountered that are truly fluent in Mandarin?

The answer to this question obviously depends on how you define 'truly fluent'. I've met at least
a few westerners who I'd say have fluent mandarin (not to mention all those you see on TV), in the
sense that they could talk with ease about any subject. That's not to say their mandarin is as
good as some native speakers, but on the other hand, why can a westerner not be entitled to make a
few mistakes every now and then and still be considered to be fluent when many native speakers
often say things which break the formal rules of chinese grammar, yet noone would consider saying
they are not fluent?










david1978 -



Quote:

The answer to this question obviously depends on how you define 'truly fluent'.

By "truly fluent" I mean someone that can speak on any topic they want, at length, with perfect
grammar and pronunciation.



Quote:

why can a westerner not be entitled to make a few mistakes every now and then and still be
considered to be fluent when many native speakers often say things which break the formal rules of
chinese grammar, yet noone would consider saying they are not fluent?

This is a poor analogy. You're confusing colloquial speech with poor grammar skills. When
Westerners make mistakes in their Mandarin communication, it stems from the fact that they don't
know the correct way of articulating themselves. When a native speaker breaks the formal rules of
grammar, it's a matter of informal, colloquial speech. However, colloquial speech is a systematic
form of communication which is even harder to learn than formal language.










anonymoose -



Quote:

This is a poor analogy. You're confusing colloquial speech with poor grammar skills. When
Westerners make mistakes in their Mandarin communication, it stems from the fact that they don't
know the correct way of articulating themselves. When a native speaker breaks the formal rules of
grammar, it's a matter of informal, colloquial speech. However, colloquial speech is a systematic
form of communication which is even harder to learn than formal language.

I agree with you to a certain extent, but a lot of this so-called 'informal, colloquial' speech
stems from the speaker not knowing the correct way of articulating themselves. Native speakers can
speak in this way without raising an eyebrow, but if the same words were to come out of the mouth
of a westerner, they would be labelled as having bad, or at least imperfect chinese.



Quote:

By "truly fluent" I mean someone that can speak on any topic they want, at length, with perfect
grammar and pronunciation.

What is perfect pronunciation? On the basis of your definition, I guess only a small minority of
native chinese speakers have 'truly fluent' chinese.










imron -



Quote:

By "truly fluent" I mean someone that can speak on any topic they want, at length, with perfect
grammar and pronunciation.

I'm not sure I'd agree with this definition of truly fluent, especially as it precludes some
native speakers from being truly fluent.

I've always liked the Interagency Language Roundtable definitions of language fluency. Based on
these rankings, I would count level 3 or above as fluent, and probably 4 or above as truly fluent.










david1978 -



Quote:

What is perfect pronunciation?

I have been down the semantic road before and I don't wish to visit it again. Trying to define and
redefine basic concepts is a defense mechanism to compensate for short comings. In other words,
when a person is not fluent in Chinese they will make statements such as: "What is perfect
pronunciation? ... Native speakers make mistakes yet no one questions their fluency ... etc" This
is not constructive or productive, and I wonder if you will hold the same criteria if and when you
achieve fluency.

The question I pose is simple: how many Westerners have you encountered that are truly fluent in
Chinese. Perhaps the word "truly" is superfluous, but there should be little doubt about what is
meant by the question.










david1978 -

BTW, I do believe that a native speaker can have poor command of their mother language thus
precluding them from being considered fluent. I'd argue that if one's extent of language skills is
limited to utilitarian purposes, they are not fluent.

I pulled a few dictionary definitions:

flu·ent
1. Able to express oneself readily and effortlessly: a fluent speaker; fluent in three languages.
2. Flowing effortlessly; polished: speaks fluent Russian; gave a fluent performance of the sonata.
2. Flowing or moving smoothly; graceful: a yacht with long, fluent curves.
3. Flowing or capable of flowing; fluid.

lu·ent /ˈfluənt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[floo-uhnt] Pronunciation Key -
Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. spoken or written with ease: fluent French.
2. able to speak or write smoothly, easily, or readily: a fluent speaker; fluent in six languages.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fluent










gougou -

I don't think those definitions prove your point; on the contrary, rather. None of them includes
the word perfect, it's all about ease and effortlessness. But you are right, let's not haggle
about definitions.










david1978 -

If you don't want to consider a person who can speak fluent Mandarin Chinese, as defined above,
"perfect" then that's certainly your prerogative. In my opinion, smooth, effortless, and polished
language skills constitutes perfect.

Anyway, the reason I am asking my question - How many Westerners have you encountered that can
speak fluent Chinese? - is because in the last few years there has been an unprecedented number of
Westerners studying the Chinese language and I'm interested to know their approximate success
rate; especially in comparison to the success rate of Westerners studying other non-tonal
languages.










gato -

Below are definitions linked to imron earlier, reformatted for easier reading. Note that the
comparison is to a "well educated, highly articulate" native speaker, not an average native
speaker.

http://www.govtilr.org/ILRscale2.htm
Speaking 4 (Advanced Professional Proficiency)
- Able to use the language fluently and accurately on all levels normally pertinent to
professional needs.
- The individual's language usage and ability to function are fully successful.
- Organizes discourse well, using appropriate rhetorical speech devices, native cultural
references and understanding.
- Language ability only rarely hinders him/her in performing any task requiring language; yet, the
individual would seldom be perceived as a native.
- Speaks effortlessly and smoothly and is able to use the language with a high degree of
effectiveness, reliability and precision for all representational purposes within the range of
personal and professional experience and scope of responsibilities.
- Can perform extensive, sophisticated language tasks, encompassing most matters of interest to
well-educated native speakers, including tasks which do not bear directly on a professional
specialty.

Speaking 4+ (Advanced Professional Proficiency, Plus)
- Speaking proficiency is regularly superior in all respects, usually equivalent to that of a well
educated, highly articulate native speaker.
- Language ability does not impede the performance of any language-use task. However, the
individual would not necessarily be perceived as culturally native.

Speaking 5 (Functionally Native Proficiency)
- Speaking proficiency is functionally equivalent to that of a highly articulate well-educated
native speaker and reflects the cultural standards of the country where the language is natively
spoken.
- The individual uses the language with complete flexibility and intuition, so that speech on all
levels is fully accepted by well-educated native speakers in all of its features, including
breadth of vocabulary and idiom, colloquialisms and pertinent cultural references.
- Pronunciation is typically consistent with that of well-educated native speakers of a
non-stigmatized dialect.












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